Comments on: My Concerns About The International Conference http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/ for friends of University Bible Fellowship Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:34:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.3.1 By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18497 Wed, 20 May 2015 13:23:37 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18497 Yellowblossom, I love your fresh and real heart felt comments, which I hope that some people in ubf will be willing to hear and listen to: “10 years of conferences, 4 a year. And I cannot remember any of the messages I heard. Every second is consumed by prepared messages, drama, etc. like you all point out…this is what life looks like at ubf. There is no time for fellowship…. I felt my 10 years became more and more robotic.”
– See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18490

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18496 Wed, 20 May 2015 13:18:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18496 Great comments, yellowblossom: “Why don’t we have christian books as supplementary material? Why is everything so bizarrely mundane and repeated? In such a repeated structure, I just stopped growing.

I attended the so loved conference… To be honest I was disappointed. The focus should have been Jesus love…not ubf and the mission. Ben, I agree with you on all points of this article. Ubf is in fact numbers driven, pride driven, mission driven …but is it Christ driven?”
– See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18489

Just for the record and for some counterperspective, I have friends who have been in ubf for over 3 decades who dislike and disagree with much of what I wrote in this article.

Or they may have just seen the title and immediately disliked it. Or they already have such strong negative sentiments and emotions that much of what I’ve written would be quite distasteful, nauseating and anger inducing to them.

My hope, if it ever arrives this side of heaven, is still to discuss this point by point with anyone who is willing. But then again, it might simply be regarded as a total waste of their time to do so, because this is NOT Bible study, not evangelism, not discipleship training, not message preparation, not conference preparation, etc, etc, etc.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18495 Wed, 20 May 2015 12:53:29 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18495 WE NEED NOT TRAIN/CONTROL ANYONE; THAT IS INFERIOR BACKFIRE METHOD. WE NEED GET H.S./SHARE H.S.; SHOW EXAMPLE/ENCOURAGE OTHER.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18494 Wed, 20 May 2015 12:51:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18494 IT IS LUDICROUS/’HELLATIOUS’ WHEN LORD OVER OTHER MAKING SAD/ANGRY, YET TEACH: YOU SHOULD BE JOYFUL. MUST ABSOLUTELY REPENT OF LORDING, GET JOY FROM HOLY SPIRIT & SHARE W/SOMEONE

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18493 Wed, 20 May 2015 12:46:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18493 elevating/parading model of ministry interferes with sharing/encouraging one another

]]> By: yellowblossom http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18490 Wed, 20 May 2015 00:59:09 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18490 10 years of conferences, 4 a year. And I cannot remember any of the messages I heard. I used to think its because I wasn’t paying attention, …but the truth is…how can anyone pay attention? Every second is consumed by prepared messages, drama, etc. like you all point out…this is what life looks like at ubf. There is no time for fellowship. But God works through people and among people. What is the pint of asking everyone to share testimonies, when no one will ever even sincerely sit with you and pray with you. When no one could be turned to as a confidante and friend?

I felt my 10 years became more and more robotic. Jesus! You are so good Jesus! For bringing me out into the sunlight and letting me follow you Lord. May you lord have mercy on everyone in my chapter and pen their eyes and bring change …let them love each other lord. Amen.

]]> By: yellowblossom http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-18489 Wed, 20 May 2015 00:49:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-18489 I could see the point of this comment…I too looked at conferences with rose colored glasses and truly convinced myself that I was spiritually growing. But here is the truth….there is a big wide world outside of ubf. Ubf conferences only focus on ubf and the ppl and work within its walls. It’s like living in a bubble and ignoring the world. Jesus loves all people and the gospel is for all. This is what I struggled with since 2009… I sincerely began wondering…why doesn’t ubf reach out to other churches and seek other missions? Why don’t we have christian books as supplementary material? Why is everything so bizarrely mundane and repeated? In such a repeated structure, I just stopped growing. Yet, Jesus word itself drove me to seek Him.

I attended the so loved conference, but I didn’t see th focus of it. To be honest I was disappointed. The focus should have been Jesus love…not ubf and the mission. Ben, I agree with you on all points of this article. Ubf is in fact numbers driven, pride driven, mission driven …but is it Christ driven?

]]> By: jonlyon http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-12985 Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:23:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-12985 I think the guy in the Mariachi with the little mexican guitar did it pretty good at the end!

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9625 Tue, 06 Aug 2013 12:07:55 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9625 note in my reflection above caps was NOT for emphasis, just speed of typing in word & ease of reading, then just copied here..:)

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9620 Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:00:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9620 Overall, I liked what I could see despite the limitations from using the streaming. I would agree with comments on message and testimony styles. But most of us already know what to expect from the formulaic approach. Actually, when I can sit back (away from the spectacle), I appreciate the possible struggle that many people have in conforming to the directions they have been given. Some people you did not notice too much difficulty, but others I felt could have done better if they were allowed to be themselves.

In my experience diretors responsible for training people to deliver a message (testimony) or even compose it in some cases are too busy reinventing the wheel. The last message I struggled to write was dismissed and I consequently read through a manuscript which was not personal for me at all. In addition the director insists he is God of message writing and testimony writing.

What a crock! It is the five paragraph essay! The man is so proud that he discovered the five paragraph essay that is taught to elementary and middle school as a template for essay writing. Oh, but I forgot, he uses some pseudo theology to discuss his contribution to the world.

That being said, I have also had many pleasant experiences that cannot be understated. Don’t expect much to change any time soon in terms of grand public display. And wouldn’t you guess, but I am married to the moooooooooooooost…..beau-ti-ful woman of God! *enter name here*

My most disappointing observation was regarding the so-called work of God that was being done. Chapters being omitted in countries, people being omitted in countries. For all that was mentioned there was much that wasn’t. I think it is a shame. I wrote in a personal message to Ben:

“Everyone wants to be somebody famous. UBF is no different. It makes an exclusive art out of it. If we can revere historical Christian figures for the efforts that they made then why can’t we also recognize our own. Do we have to be sure they are really trying to spread the gospel? Why are we so paranoid? Why can’t top leadership trust in the Holy Spirit and just allow pioneering leaders to act according to their faith? Why does everything in UBF require some pompous ceremony in order to become official? It is really far from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

When someone says they are going to pioneer I generally believe they are. However, when leaders enforce the direction of pioneering on someone it may lead somewhere else – but we don’t need to ask ‘Why?’ – the Holy Spirit reveals that those examples are generally from men.”

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9619 Mon, 05 Aug 2013 12:45:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9619 reflection i wrote at conference
HOLY SPIRIT OR BUST
JESUS GRACEFULLY CAME TO US, HELPED US, DIED FOR US, ROSE FOR US, LIVES FOR US. HE IS THE WAY, THE GRACE OF GOD. OUR EFFORT IS NOT THE WAY. OTHERS WELL-MEANING IDEAS ARE NOT THE WAY. ONLY JESUS’ GIFT OF GOD WAS ALREADY THE WAY. LET’S STOP TRYING TO KILL THE HOLY SPIRIT☺
MAN GIVES US ANXIETY ABOUT THEIR WORRIES OF LOSS LIKE SANDUSKY LAWSUIT AT PENN STATE. JESUS LEFT US PEACE IN ALL WAYS & LATER SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT TO HELP US.
LOOK, A PLANT GROWS FROM A SEED IN GROUND BY RAIN & SUN; PLANT GROWS FRUIT LIKE CORN COBB OR APPLE; CORN HAS NEW SEEDS ON COBB TO EAT OR PLANT, APPLE HAS SEED INSIDE SIMILAR WAY. SO PLANT CAN’T COMMAND/MAKE ANOTHER PLANT GROW; CAN ONLY SACRIFICE FRUIT LIKE COBB TO SHED SEEDS IN GROUND SO SEED CAN GROW BY RAIN/SUN. CORN STALK CANNOT GROW WATERMELON WHICH GROWS ON VINE.
NOW COMPARE HOLY SPIRIT FRUIT LIKE JOY; IF GOD PLANTS /GROWS SEED OF JOY IN HEART, WE CAN SHARE SEEDS OF JOY W OTHERS WHO THEN GROW ALSO: WE ARE LUDICROUS/’HELLATIOUS’ WHEN WE LORD OVER OTHERS MAKING THEM SAD/ANGRY, BUT TEACH: YOU SHOULD BE JOYFUL. WE MUST ABSOLUTELY REPENT OF LORDING & GET JOY FROM HOLY SPIRIT, THEN SHARE IT W SOMEONE. BUT JOY CAN’T PLANT PEACE/ETC. SO WE NEED H.S. SEEDS/HELP TO GROW/BEAR/SHARE H.S. VARIETY OF NECESSARY FRUITS (LOVE/HOPE/ETC). SO WE NEED NOT TRAIN/CONTROL ANYONE; THAT IS INFERIOR BACKFIRE METHOD. WE NEED GET H.S./SHARE H.S.; SHOW EXAMPLE/ENCOURAGE OTHER.
RELIGION W/OUT H.S. RUINS LIVES, STEALS JOY, DESTROYS PEACE, EXTINGUISHES HOPE/LEADS TO SIN, DAMAGES CHILDREN. I ONLY HOPE IT IS NOT TOO LATE TO SAVE OUR KIDS, BUT WE MUST REACH OUT TO GOD FOR H.S. FRUIT FOR THEM & US. SADLY RELIGION HAS FALTERED TOO LONG: OH H.S. COME NEWLY, YOU ARE SORELY NEEDED/HELP LONG OVERDUE! MAY ANYONE OR ANYTHING THAT STANDS IN THE WAY OF YOU HELPING YOUR PEOPLE, BE BANISHED:) A.
JESUS IS THE VINE, WE ARE THE BRANCHES; NONE OF US ARE THE VINE, NO MATTER HOW GREAT WE THINK WE ARE. RELIGION CAN ROB JESUS, TRYING TO MAKE OURSELVES THE VINE. JESUS IS THE ONLY VINE.
LOVE ONE ANOTHER, DOESN’T MEAN LORD OVER/CONTROL ONE ANOTHER (THOSE ARE THINGS FROM PIT OF HELL THAT MUST BE REPENTED). LOVE MEANS JESUS TREATS US NOT AS SERVANT BUT AS FRIEND; LOVE MEANS SHARE HS FRUIT W H.S. HELP.
1WORD: H.S. HELP

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9618 Mon, 05 Aug 2013 09:04:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9618 Sibboleth, there are two mechanisms at work. One is “message training”. Our chapter director even went so far as to record us with a camera while practicing to deliver the message. Second is simply the pressure to conform. I always liked when new members delivered there sogams, because it was so different and fresh in style and content. But after only a few weeks, and without any message training, they started to change until they had the same style and content as all the others. The atmosphere in UBF is so that everything that is different is frowned upon or ignored at best, while you are appreciated and applauded if you do things like you are told and like all the others are doing. The opposite of “ungodly individualism” is conformance. So you quickly learn to behave like the others, it’s the best way to survive and be recognized in such an environment. Therefore I assume that even without the message training, messages would be alike. Any psychologist who is worth his salt would conclude, alone from the conforming way how people in UBF behave, that it is a cult, even without knowing all the background stories of training and abuse. Actually every normal person sees this.

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9617 Mon, 05 Aug 2013 06:19:56 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9617 A few more brief, mid-PTSD thoughts and questions on the conference messengers and life testimony sharers: If a group of psychologists (1) were to do a blind screening of these messages and testimonies, what might they conclude about the personality types of those at the podium? They’d probably conclude that they nearly all fall within the same personality type. And if those psychologists were informed that all these people underwent UBF “message training” (2) and other types of training for years beforehand, what might they conclude about UBF and UBF training?

(1) Let’s say it’s a group of Christian psychologists to lessen the potential offense.

(2) message training which apparently included making every person at the podium begin their performance with a “Helllllooooo!” while waving their arm in the air

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9614 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 13:25:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9614 You may have captured my conclusion after this conference. A piece of metal looks big if you hammer it out enough. A batch of dough looks big if you roll it out enough and stick a bunch of national flags on the edges. But where’s the depth? I asked that after these messages and life testimonies. The messages are essentially the same tired ones I heard many years ago. (Moran did try to change it up a little, God bless ‘im). The life testimonies follow the same formula they did many years ago. You thought they sounded flat? I did too. That’s because they were flat. Where’s the depth? The depth could be found on the table outside the auditorium where they were hawking books from … the UBF Press. They produced flashy promotional videos that contained zero honesty about the troubled history of UBF in places like Canada and Germany. Honesty is depth. Where’s the depth?

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9613 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 08:31:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9613 “I observed that UBF seems to be a big organization. They showed us videos that showed the work of UBF around the world.”

As far as I understand, that’s the whole point of the conference. People who only saw their small chapter at home shall see how large UBF really is, be impressed and get “vision”. That’s why Samuel Lee even faked photos by adding cloned audience to make it appear even larger. I also once attended an ISBC. Even though I refused to go because I did not understand why I needed to waste so much money for the trip, my chapter leader pushed me until I went. Of course it worked as my chapter leader planned, I was impressed. Until then I had never been in America and sure I was impressed. (Coming from a small country to America will always leave a big impression no matter how good or bad the conference is.) You start to believe that UBF is a great thing with international importance.

“Other than that this ISBC is better than the other smaller conferences, like Easter BIble Conferences. Less pride, more Glory to God.”

Doesn’t this contradict what we said above? Isn’t showing all the “greatness” of UBF also a sign of pride? Sure, outwardly, they wrap it as “all the Glory to God” and appear to be humble, but in reality, all this glory goes to UBF.

]]> By: sheepherd1 http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9612 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 05:15:46 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9612 Hello,

I’m one of the attenders of this UBF ISBC. I really think that this conference is a really blessed one. Maybe because I never been to a UBF International conference, this is my first time. I observed that UBF seems to be a big organization. They showed us videos that showed the work of UBF around the world. Other than that, To be honest, the testimony sharers and the messengers were very unnatural to the way they deliver their messages. They almost sounds the same and same tone of speech. Maybe I’m accustomed to listening to pastors and preachers without them having to read off from a written message. My other observation is that people seem to mention the word “training” a lot in this conference. Other than that this ISBC is better than the other smaller conferences, like Easter BIble Conferences. Less pride, more Glory to God.

I decided not to go to my church’s GLS this summer and go to this one because I want to experience this big conference and God’s working thru the UBF ministry.

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9611 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 04:11:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9611 “Why are these numeric accomplishments mentioned in life testimonies at all?”

And why are these numeric goals are mentioned in all ubf prayers?!

I read an article by a Russian missionary to Canada. Someone told him, “Let’s pray for raising (a number) new churches in North America nex year!”. He at once answered that he would not pray for any “numbers” and would be very careful when someone suggests such numeric prayer topics. So there is such a temptation in churches to have numeric goals and prayer topics. Healthy churches don’t give them a way. But ubf shows clearly what happens when all this numeric stuff is of the highest priority.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9605 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 01:42:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9605 interest group about Holy Spirit was a blessing: leaders did a nice job of presenting (especially Andy/Waterloo: God seems to have been working better there for awhile because they let Him/gave Him room; wish it would rub off on rest of world..)

also time was allowed for comments: of course some stalworths defended God/Jesus from overemphasis on Holy Spirit, but others strongly spoke up for Spirit gifts/fruit/courage/help/freedom/etc; a dialogue started

if churches spent more time in such dialogue, God could work much better;
too much time is spent in monologue (listen to one point of view repeatedly/adnauseum, without opportunity to respond)

i think Bereans digging out the word of God in their time would be ashamed of the repetitive rehashing in our time:) but what else can we do by human effort? that’s why we need to forsake man’s spiritual bullying which comes from lack of Spirit help, & seek freedom of Holy Spirit working/guiding/flourishing all who are willing! HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9604 Sun, 04 Aug 2013 01:15:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9604 meant to say pledge above; call is ok to show new or renewed desire for Christ (i think best way is for all to stand, for all need newly ever day, if honest to self)

pledge is ok if general to follow Christ & as He personally leads in one’s life; but specific is wishful presumption, unless God guides/enables over time

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9603 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 20:49:02 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9603 (This time for sure. Sorry, admin.)

Corrected link to Joshua’s article on the Gospel of Mission

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9602 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 20:33:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9602 Corrected link to Joshua’s article on the Gospel of Mission

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9601 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 20:01:30 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9601 Observations from this member of the captive audience:

Ben, I think you were mostly right on with your concerns.

I note that the late founder and his American partner seem not to be mentioned as frequently as they used to, though it was disconcerting to hear her being introduced on opening night by that stupid “Mother Barry” title. I think with the lessened emphasis on hagiography, there’s also less of the “Look at us! We’re UBF and we’re notable!” self-glorification. But if hagiography were truly dead I wouldn’t have had to hear some Ukrainian guy praising his leader for giving him run-to-McDonald’s-while-shouting-slogans training. Seriously, WTH?!

To my untrained eye, it doesn’t look like the place is overflowing with members. Maybe they didn’t emphasize numeric goals nearly enough. But why is it that these still formulaic “life testimonies” get the biggest audience reaction when they mention having a large number of Bible studies per week? Why are these numeric accomplishments mentioned in life testimonies at all?

As predicted, the theme and emphasis is “mission.” I hear the Gospel of Mission being frequently preached with a spirit of urgency. I hear the gospel of Christ being preached with that usual obligatory spirit that ends with that usual perfunctory “Amen!” They have it backwards, and they don’t seem to know it.

It seems that I witness at least one act of spiritual abuse at these conferences. This time it was some senior Korean chewing out some helpless conference technical staff, right in the middle of the auditorium with the audience seated all around. Sigh.

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9599 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 18:03:42 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9599 you go bro!
in/out, here/there, may God help us remember who we r (& who we r not:) & to take a stand (even when we wobble or fall-we get back up, so help us God.) we who strive for God’s Best/Right ways, r one in God. Amen HALLELUJAH!

GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT ALONE SHALL REIGN.

change doesn’t happen, we happen: inspired by God we incur man’s wrath until God’s slow change always comes..:)A.H!

did not the wall in Germany finally come down (not so much because of our prayers but because of increasing West/East sufferings, cries to heaven, & those bold enough to advocate right for All!

likewise the separating walls of religion (hierarchy/privilege, denomination, inordinate benefit) must, will come down, so help us God-Amen (even if our efforts are persecuted & our blood spilled someday, even if we pass on not seeing earth change to God’s way in our time, we still welcome it from afar knowing man’s ways will not prevail, God Alone will Prevail & His people will be set free to Worship Him Alone & serve Him by helping one another along the pilgrim way: A. H!

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9598 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:38:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9598 i think there have always been some who felt sufficiently blessed to do so (whether from individual gain or entitled access to collective gains)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9597 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:34:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9597 ..& the deep/significant needs of people, who if Sincerely helped/encouraged when possible, will sense God’s good & respond to God naturally

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9596 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:30:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9596 Amen. I appreciate sincere young (& not so young) people, but am sad when sounds like their words are changed/overcoached/or ‘used’ to someone else’s end; religion must repent of climax in offering & call, for it colors all that precedes it to get beneficial final result; may Holy Spirit Alone reign to work in each person’s need & response to God Alone, & let Him Alone who is worthy then disseminate it As He Alone sees fit/knows best to those truly in need (not the overly blessed already)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9595 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:21:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9595 i’m here but feel like it may be my last

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9591 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 12:40:43 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9591 Like you Ben, this is the first ISBC I’ve missed since 1988. What did I do with the extra time and money? Our family is going on vacation, I volunteered with my company to clean up a Detroit neighborhood and I had a nice glass of wine.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9590 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 12:38:48 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9590 Thanks for the updates, Ben, Sibboleth, Yohan (nice photo Sibboleth!)

The ISBC seems the same as always: a big show; some individual testimonies and sincere/heartfelt announcements. When ubf puts on its best show, it looks rather spectacular, and they will always find a way to “make quota” in terms of numbers. ubf will indeed plow onward.

I have no doubt that God is doing something in the lives of the individual testimony sharers. I just hope they don’t end up in the Ohio river someday :(

]]> By: Sibboleth http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9589 Sat, 03 Aug 2013 07:49:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9589 “Photo bomb” from the other night.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9588 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 18:11:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9588 A noteworthy quote that perhaps puts any big Christian event into proper perspective:

“It is a painful fact indeed to realize how poorly prepared most Christian leaders prove to be when they are invited to be spiritual leaders in the true sense. Most of them are used to thinking in terms of large-scale organization, getting people together in churches, schools and hospitals, and running the show as a circus director. They have become unfamiliar with, and even somewhat afraid of, the deep and significant movements of the Spirit.” Henri Nouwen, The Wounded Healer

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9587 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 13:47:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9587 I’d have to say that this 5 min introduction video to the ISBC is quite well done. It was likely produced by our younger leaders. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gnKWwkCcS40#at=14

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9586 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 13:43:52 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9586 Yeah, Yohan, I agree. Chapter directors need to meet, perhaps, not necessarily for “more Bible study,” but for building deeper and more meaningful friendships and relationships.

For sure, local retreats would be a far more economically efficient and productive way to welcome new believers or seekers.

]]> By: Yohan Hwang http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9585 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 04:59:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9585 I suppose there are many these days that feel they have a lot of time and money to blow. Where they get these from, I have no clue.

I think it would be more helpful if these intl conferences were only for chapter directors. Leaders of churches need to continuously check and align their doctrine. No chapter should be in isolation for too long, for there are always other influences whether local or from the internet creeping in and one can start deviating slowly.

But if the purpose is to reach out to newcomers or seekers, why should anyone spend so much on a plane ticket. It’s better to have local retreats.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9584 Fri, 02 Aug 2013 00:56:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9584 My synopsis from watching the live streamming (Thu, Aug 1):

Andreas Hassani (Heidelberg, Germany) gave the 1st message (Jn 13:1-38). He spoke forcefully, passionately and very precisely.

Samuel P. (India) gave a life testimony: “From an Outcast to a Kingdom of Priests.” He shared how he was changed from a low caste person and one who was not accepted to be a trainee priest to become a shepherd and Bible teacher.

Sarah Neusa shared a life testimony: “From a Samaritan Woman to a Woman of Faith for Portugal.” She shared her life of being sexual abused, and her change through Bible study to be a mother of prayer for the nations.

Greg Lewis gave some business announcements (10 min).

Teddy gave the the prayer topics and announcements very naturally and graciously (4 min): Jesus loves you.

This seems to be a much better way for an introvert like me to attend the conference!

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9581 Thu, 01 Aug 2013 23:21:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9581 For anyone who is interested, I just found out that there will be live streaming of the event at the following URL: http://www.OnTheRibbon.com/SoLoved/Broadcast

The broadcast will be during our general sessions (all are Eastern Standard Time in the United States):
Thursday, August 1st: 7:00 – 8:30 PM
Friday, August 2nd: 9:00 – 11:30 AM; 6:30 – 8:30 PM
Saturday, August 3rd: 9:00 – 11:30 AM; 6:30 – 8:30 PM
Sunday, August 4th: 10:30 AM – 12:30 PM

I might give it a shot since UBF has never done live streamming before. At 7:20 pm, eastern time, Aug 1st, the link still does not work.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9574 Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:32:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9574 Every once in a while I remember how nice and cozy it was for me to live in my own little fantasy world, denying the reality around me and ignoring the problems of others. Then I remember who I am and that someone has to to make a stand.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9573 Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:23:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9573 I know the feeling well. Kidd Rock has often helped me the past 2 years.

I heard “things are changing” for 24 years. And things were changing. Yet nothing changed.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9572 Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:11:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9572 Today is the day the 2013 ISBC begins. Many people, including my 2 sons, left Chicago very early this morning (6 am), in order to arrive in time for dinner in Indiana, Pennsylvania, a 10 hour drive.

Strangely, I have been feeling somewhat down and sad since yesterday in that I am not attending this conference. I think it is because my entire Christian life of over 3 decades has been so closely intertwined with UBF, and that I have always fully participated in “UBF’s big events.” But this time I am not because of the concerns that I have addressed in this post.

I have been told by many UBFers that “things are changing.” Surely, they are. But sometimes I wonder if the change is a genuine broken “inside out” change. Or is it just a change of expediency, simply because of external pressure, and/or because of the need to change in order to keep the controls over UBF at large?

All this to say that I am sad and feel bitter sweet in that I am not able to fully jump into this big UBF celebration.

Still, I truly do pray that God will abundantly bless the conference so that God is indeed glorified, and that many hearts will be renewed and refreshed by the Holy Spirit for the glory of God!

]]> By: Vitaly http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9535 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 17:29:53 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9535 What a nice expression of ubf’s purpose of studying the gospel: “We will study the gospel during the conference so we can firmly hold on to our campus mission.”

I think the purpose of the ISBC is just the same.

Source: http://www.ubf.org/content/taipei-ubf-will-have-first-summer-bible-conference-vietnam

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9527 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:12:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9527 sheepherd1,

I am confident that you will not have to write or share anything about John 17 :<

btw, holy contradiction batman! How many here have read "Your Church is Too Small“?

This book is amazing. I have to resist the urge to quote the whole thing here. As I systematically review the 12 point ubf heritage, I see contradiction after contradiction with “mainline Christianity” and historical Christian doctine.

]]> By: sheepherd1 http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9526 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 01:42:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9526 I’ll just orally share my reflections, just like the last Easter Conference. I feel it’s more natural that way. Let the Holy Spirit do its work :).

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9524 Tue, 30 Jul 2013 00:58:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9524 You’ll not be forced, but it is in the program for you to write and share your “reflections” on Sat night and Sun morning < ^_^>: http://www.solovedconference.org/program.htm

]]> By: sheepherd1 http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9523 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 22:33:57 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9523 I’ll be attending this big conference. I hope it will be blessed it one. I hope students will be blessed with the theme “So Loved”. I just hope I will not be forced to write life testimony or a testimony regarding Chapter 14 and 15 of John :).

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9518 Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:33:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9518 In 3 days, another ISBC, will there be a breakthru, the title is right “So Loved” Ubf leaders need to learn God Love and practice it not just preach it.

My concerns:

— the family unit and the toll on them…children neglected at home and forced to attend…leaders pressuring young believers to attend….poor families and large families strapped in debt and running up credit card debt….life testimonies are they real…messages are they scripted and messengers own words…other church involvement….hectic and unbalanced schedule that promotes ubf not love…….bible studies are they open or driven by one word….koreans are they making this their conference only for connections….abuse and shunning for those who dont go…love driven or work driven…traveling and safety for families..will there be real openness and trasparency…real prayer…rumors and false reports like Big Bear is working for the devil because he left ubf…will the truth be told …. will abuse be addressed openly…willl change come to protect families and students..will God be gorified or abuse and ubf

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9451 Fri, 26 Jul 2013 07:01:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9451 “It makes UBF seem like bossy unappreciative slave drivers” (seem?:)

“my prayer is that God abundantly blesses our upcoming international conference” (prayer!:)

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9437 Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:33:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9437 Even though “anon” won’t reply, maybe his/her viewpoint is shared by quite a few:

“In the end I don’t think your words here are serving to build any one up–not even those who will agree.”

In my case, my goal is not to build up anyone here, nor is my goal to tear down anyone. My goal is to find what’s real and to share my honest reactions and thoughts. I am seeking to recover from my decades in ubf and this community helps me do that. If someone doesn’t like something I share, call me out. Swear if you have to but for the love of God share something! At least this blog ends the infuriating silence so many of us former members experience!

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9436 Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:27:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9436 “how to sell bullshit”

This gets my vote for heritage point #13.

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9433 Thu, 25 Jul 2013 14:15:54 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9433 About a week away from another sales job, the ISBC, a good movie to watch to prepare for this is “The Smell of Success” with Billy Bob Thornton. The plot is how to sell bullshit. Another good read for all fearful UBFers is “When bad things happen to good people” by Harold S. Kushner. They have mastered the trade of selling people on a ministry that is clearly abusive to families and students and even married couples. I promise you if you do not go God will not send you to hell in fact you will be doing the ministry a favor to really stand against abuse. They have no intentions of changing, us who were blessed to leave no it. I pray that the abuse will stop.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9207 Fri, 12 Jul 2013 02:07:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9207 Ben, I cannot really say about the ISBC, but my local chapter had a conference and we did persistently go to campus in the remaining month just to bring people to the conference. I remember this had been usual practice in many chapters. So, I was really just commenting on the real practical benefit. In the past few year things like what I am talking about have been dropped in some places for sure.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9204 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:45:31 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9204 gc, I don’t think that the pressure to bring people is as intense as in the past. But then again, I am no longer a traditional hardliner. In fact, to some, I’m not even a UBFer anymore. :-)

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9192 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 07:21:22 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9192 I can’t confirm that either. Drinking alcohol of any kind was seen as very unspiritual by most missionaries in UBF. Most of them didn’t drink at all and often did not even know the difference between alcoholic beverages. I know some directors were a more liberal in private which can be seen as hypocritical. But if anybody had a drinking problem that must be a rare and individual case.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9190 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 04:03:26 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9190 As we are just less then a month away from the ISBC I am interested to hear accounts from senior (ex)members about the normal last minute efforts to bring people to Jesus – OOPS!!! – I mean the conference…

From my observations over the years directors demand initiative to go to campus and invite anyone who is willing to just come. Such activity is done so that memebers are always busy and concerning about the conference as much as possible until the actual date. In many cases the remaining month is crucial until about the last week to do this.

The problem I have always found with the strict effort to invite newcomers to the conference in this way is rather simple – UBF always comes off as a cult to most people who have a first introduction through the conference. We meet many brothers and sisters who came, but afterwards – run for the hills.

I know everyone has given some insight into this in the context of building numbers, but I can just imagine the reality in many chapters right now – that everything has stopped so that the campus may be visited to bring people to the conference.

It is much better to build up a relationship first. But that being said – conference programs must be reviewed all around. I am in no way suggesting a more sinister approach to gaining loyalty and commitment from people when they would eventually smell a rat.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9189 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:40:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9189 But because ubf trained me so well, I am still absolute :)

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9188 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:38:28 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9188 So now ubfers can call me just a bitter, wounded, angry, slanderous, scary drunkard.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9187 Thu, 11 Jul 2013 00:37:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9187 The Captain is also known as Captain Morgan.

But these days I prefer to release the Kraken, it’s higher proof.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9186 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:46:08 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9186 Fill me in, Brian. What’s “the Captain”?

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9184 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 23:06:32 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9184 Interesting, bigbear. That is the first I’ve heard of anything alcohol related. In my part of ubf, we were all squeaky clean in that area (or so I think).

I drink now though, casually. I intentionally have a beer several times a week and sometimes visit the Captain just to remind me never to go back to ubf and to ensure almost no ubf person would want to come near me :)

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9180 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 21:39:45 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9180 @big bear, Perhaps, it is not fair to judge anyone’s motives for drinking. I drink alcohol to chill in the evening, or if I can’t sleep, or when my wife and I have a nice meal. Drinking is not a sin, drunkenness is.

In a sense, I’m glad your director took you out for a beer. They would make a lot more friends if they did so out of genuine love and friendship.

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9179 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 21:13:24 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9179 Ben Toh…our director would tell us not to drink alcohol…I went to his house and he had a whole cabinet full of wine and other alcohol..once he took me out and he even bought me a beer which was a shock..not just me all of us…I could not believe it I was drinking a cold beer with director…realized he lived differently behind closed doors…I have not doubt many directors are drinking alcohol…yes, many are drinking to drown their depression

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9175 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:44:41 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9175 I don’t know about “directors are drinking every night.” :-)

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9170 Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:06:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9170 THE CONFERENCE ONLY PROMOTES ABUSE AND CONDONES ITS FROM THE LEADERS…leaders go there to show off God work….though they know it is a show….behind the curtains children are being neglected, marriages are being torn apart, directors are drinking every night, people are so depressed and so broke from going to conferences that it is a sham…..people are forced to write half truth life testimonies and young Bible students are groomed to abuse new sheep….after the conference the abuse continues….if you are in ubf there is no need to fear any of the leaders they are only sinners…..many only have big heads…challenge them to live in love not bible knowledge….you will know them by their wives and children talk to their children…they know the truth…watch them outside of ubf…run for the hills…..

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9158 Tue, 09 Jul 2013 23:37:13 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9158 Ben Toh…I hope you are right…the pressure was so much in Cinti UBf even when you could not afford to go and kids were left alone and the bills were tight…I hated thinking about the safety of our children while wandering off to a conference..the pressure of trying to get all your sheep to go and the daily prayer meetings and the pressure, pressure pressure to conform to the director’s wishes…this pressure became a way of life for us who became directors..we learned from our mentors…even now I have to refrain myself from forcing and pressuring people…God is slowly healing all of us and bringing the true freedom of the Christian life to all…Please no pressure on young Bible students..just love..trust God and love them rather they want to go or not..not judgments…just love…be happy even if they don’t go…and I know this is hard for a UBFer but is needed…this is God’s love…

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9156 Tue, 09 Jul 2013 19:54:36 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9156 @big bear, I may be wrong and I’m not sure about other UBF chapters. But my subjective sense from where I am is that pressuring people and arm twisting people to go to the ISBC and guilt tripping people is less than before. This is so even if and when some UBFers seriously sincerely strongly believe that you should go.

I hope it is not just me feeling this way, but more widely experienced by all UBFers.

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9155 Tue, 09 Jul 2013 19:47:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9155 Please if anyone forces you to go or pressures you to go…dont go….there should be a meeting for all about the abuses in ubf….openly so that new comers will know the truth and all should know that families and children must come first over ubf business

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9136 Mon, 08 Jul 2013 18:52:23 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9136 BOYCOTT…spend the weekend with your family and friends and join a healthy church….take a stand against abuse and stand up for your family….dont be pushed around by the bullies of Ubf…..this would be real love in action..a universal boycott…..then true change will begin….

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9094 Sat, 06 Jul 2013 03:47:06 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9094 you go big bear! but as we know, for many ‘the show must go on’..

]]> By: big bear http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9076 Fri, 05 Jul 2013 15:24:21 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9076 With all else said…the reason Ubf denies its wrongs is because the leaders dontpractice what they preach….a double standard….it they see the abuse the Ubf system does to familes, students, and even neighboring churches and the body of Christ…they simply cant except the truth….many are stuck in the trap and receive much honor in ubf….Ubf is such a small ministry and there is a reason…it is a pharisee ministry…the Bible study is used to trap people in the system….Jesus never manipulated, never even promoted a system…he loved people geniunely…this is rare in Ubf…Ubf people only help those who commit to their system..all other believers can go to hell..the conference is set up to glorify the system…their is no altar call….people are forced to attend all the conference by leaders…it is a show…..the show ends in 4 days then depression sets in…the time would be better spent putting God love into action…once I went to Kenya to attend a Bible conference…one morning I left Ubf to go alone in a villiage to meet the natives and share God love and to see how people really live…one family invited me into their hut….I shared the gospel, drank and ate with them. gave them my water purifier and bought their children candy….I skipped the boring ubf meetings…did this on many oversea conferences….in Caracus. Ven I skipped testimony sharing in Mother Barry bible study group to buy cokes for the native boys and go horse back riding with other shepherds andboxes o ofah esnatives…when we drove to drove to mexico we handed out boxes of spanisBible….these things are practical ways to show God love

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9073 Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:43:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9073 first, some comments include some venting so we can feel alive after being held to the ropes by legalism (we have more to do than worry about every comment fixing leaders, sooner or later we all have to grow up & let God fix us, do our part to fix ourselves,etc..:)

secondly, the internal policeman (the gut feeling of right/wrong) is helpful in discerning what’s good from God (if it seems right it probably is, if it seems wrong it probably is:) think back in life/religion, when we continued on into trouble it was usually because we didn’t heed the internal alarm from God, we listened instead to a different part of ourselves, or friends, or respected authoritities/etc

may God guide us into all truth, & away from all pitfalls. HALLELUJAH!

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9071 Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:26:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9071 clean-up, cleanup for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross..you’ll never suffer loss:)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9070 Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:23:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9070 wise man say: when number grow so fast you lose track, you are successful:)

]]> By: Mark Mederich http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9069 Thu, 04 Jul 2013 16:19:18 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9069 the end of the spear:)

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9065 Thu, 04 Jul 2013 12:17:34 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9065 “(or 24 Daily Breads every day) for 3 years!”

Actually I think the math works out to about 8 daily breads per day for 3 years or 24 daily breads for 1 year.

I feel like I write that much myself alone! And if I didn’t have to eat or sleep, I would be blogging non-stop.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9062 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:58:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9062 Ha! And we are doing WORLD MISSION to boot :)

Yes, I noticed my capacity to ingest and comprehend information, and also to express and articulate my thoughts, increased at least 100 fold since leaving ubf. All those condemning voices and spears of guilt were ssapping my mind!

And also I no longer speak, think, act, eat, sleep or feel like a Korean, but as an AMERICAN! Koreans can be Korean and that’s fine. Just LET ME BE an American.

(And I think we should talk to Chris and other Germans for “high quality” beer :)

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9061 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:28:17 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9061 Can’t wait for my beer, Brian. I think I like the IPAs, which was introduced to be by an exUBFer, who seems to know where the good beers are!

295 articles in 3 years is like writing 2 messages/sermons a week every week for 3 years!

9,000 comments in 3 years is like writing or listening to 170 testimonies a week every week (or 24 Daily Breads every day) for 3 years!

Can anyone in UBF beat that? Woops, I defaulted to my ultra-competitive UBF mode, or rather my sinful depraved one-upmanship mode!

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9060 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:01:11 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9060 Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Yo. It is healthy and normal to be angry from time to time. I would think most ubfers would be angry at things said on this website. That’s ok. That’s human. But what is harmful is to never express such anger or to deal with it in an unhealthy way. Reminds me of someone’s comment a while back regarding “many sunsets in ubf”. It is not healthy to let the sun go down on your anger. Better to deal with it today than to deny it or pent it up.

And just to stroke everyone’s ego, especially yours Ben, thanks for pushing us over 9,000 comments in 3 years!

Ben, you get the prize for making the 9,000th comment (the prize is a beer from me :)

So just a note of advice to all you silent ubfers reading this… next time someone tells you “ubfriends is so predictable and boring” or “nobody wants to read that stuff” or “ubfriends is slowing down”, just ask them:

“Then why does ubfriends have 9,000 comments? Why did they publish 295 articles in those 3 years? Why have the comments been increasing in 2013? Why have dozens of current and former members contributed to ubfriends from all over the world?”

(then you might want to run for cover…:)

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9059 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 19:21:39 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9059 @Ben: thanks. Don’t worry; I was proud long before meeting you :)

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9058 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:39:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9058 +1 Well said, Joshua. God surely gifted you with the use of words that speaks to the very heart of the matter. Oh oh, I am now going to be accused of making you proud!!

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9057 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:14:44 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9057 @Yo: “One of the issues people might have with this, is that those people might become proud.”

In my experience, pride does not develop when someone is legitimately recognized and appreciated for their hard work. Consider that even in Jesus’ parable, the master said, “Well done” to his servant. Rather, pride develops when we consider our own contribution as better than others, when we measure and compare contributions, efforts, and successes, and when we credit ourselves for our accomplishments. Any honest person in UBF would have to agree that such measuring, comparing, and self-congratulating is very common, and often routinely encouraged in pre- and post-conference meetings.

Rather, I think it would take a huge degree of humility on the part of organizers to fully recognize and commend the efforts of volunteers. It would show vulnerability. It would imply that the leadership was served by the regular members, which violates their fantasy of endlessly sacrificing and serving for ungrateful sheep. It would imply that the leadership isn’t everything, and that the regular members really have something important to contribute, which would diminish the stranglehold on power and authority at the top. And so, in my view, when the small guy isn’t acknowledged, its not his pride that’s the issue, but rather that of the big guy.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9056 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 18:13:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9056 @Yo, nice name! Welcome to UBFriends. “When I first read your post I was somewhat angry…” Sorry about that. Several people have already told me this, especially those who are not political, who have no political agenda, who are not trying to impose their own agenda, and who are truly giving their whole hearts to serve and prepare the ISBC because they love Jesus and the church.

I have no doubt that God will bless such as these.

]]> By: Yo http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-9055 Wed, 03 Jul 2013 17:28:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-9055 When I first read your post I was somewhat angry but I understand what you are saying and agree with you in some way. I think the way a conference is set up depends on the people planning it. I have attended conferences that were laid back and others that were filled with action, but more of the first than the second. The program at the ISBC doesn’t allow much time for interaction, which I was very disappointed about because I thought that was one reason why we had this conference. Instead we are mainly staying with our chapter members and region.
I was surprised when someone said (sorry I don’t remember who brought it up first) whether this conference can glorify God. I think it is a matter on how you look at things. If someone says, “I did this, this, and this,” then that is not glorifying God, or is it? But the actions of one are not going to necessarily reflect on others. God judges according to what we did and what we didn’t do. His judgement is fair and just. So if one person is trying to glorify himself/herself then that is their problem, which one person could point out to him/her.
I have helped prepare several conferences. This is my second big conference. I have to say, a lot of work goes into the preparation. Prayer is an important part of the preparation. I always appreciate the work people do to put a conference together (that doesn’t mean I am always happy about how it is laid out), but you are right that more appreciation could be shown for people who work their behind of. One of the issues people might have with this, is that those people might become proud. But could we do all these things on our own? Who gave us the tools to do them? Pride is important in some sense but dangerous in another.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7738 Mon, 27 May 2013 17:45:33 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7738 @Ben:

“Will the (shameless, cowardly) attempt to remove the “entire Controversy section about UBF” be accepted?”

> Yes, that is part of the Internet Committee’s job. From time to time some ubf do-gooder (like I used to be :) will try to remove some negative material about ubf. This is still happening, for example I published the 2011 email I got instructing ubf leaders to dislike some negative article

“How does Wikipedia decide what changes to adopt or reject?”

> The Wikipedians enforce the policies. Basically it is an honor system built on mutual accountability and academic exercise. Many PhD’s and professors are Wiki Admins. Don’t mess with them :) They hate “fancruft” and “self=praise” and “self-promotion”. So bascially you can’t really submit an article about yourself. Wikipedia is meant to only publish from reliable sources. And guess what? Reliable sources say ubf is a cult. Erasing whole sections, as ubf keeps trying to do, earns you a ban eventually.

> Oh and by the way, I’ll repeat something I’ve said before here about Wikipedia: I REPENT! I am so ashamed that I accepted advice and direction and quotes from SB and her team to “clean up” the ubf Wikipedia article. The Wiki Admins (who never heard of ubf) slammed me for doing so.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7736 Mon, 27 May 2013 17:07:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7736 @Brian: “Don’t they know everyone can see what they are doing?” I honestly do not think that they do realize this. They might still be operating during the “old times,” where they can control, dictate and regulate what they want without being accountable, or discovered, or exposed.

Will the (shameless, cowardly) attempt to remove the “entire Controversy section about UBF” be accepted? How does Wikipedia decide what changes to adopt or reject?

Can we start a new Wikipedia section on “UBFriends”? How?

I may be wrong but MBF stands for Middle (school) Bible Fellowship, I think. I’m not sure where the age division is.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7718 Mon, 27 May 2013 01:45:49 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7718 Ben, something else to inquire about, please. What is “MBF”?

So CBF means Childrens’ bible fellowhip, HBF means Highschool bible fellowship. What is MBF?

And I would also check into why someone with an IP address in Seoul, Korea tried to remove all controversies from the ubf Wikipedia article? This is getting a bit ridiculous. Don’t they know everyone can see what they are doing?

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7717 Mon, 27 May 2013 00:04:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7717 I inquired about the negative number change last week. It was just that those who registered partially were paying in installments, which bumped up the number, which then required correction.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7716 Sun, 26 May 2013 22:56:16 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7716 Hey everyone, check out the new presentation with details.

Check out slide 29. Thought I was kidding?
Check out slide 30. Nice stats.

]]> By: joshua http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7642 Fri, 24 May 2013 15:36:14 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7642 @Anon, thanks for your contribution here. Do you mind if I add my thoughts?

>”When I read some of the online content, particularly the comments, I wonder how much of it actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not the flesh.”

This is a hard question. In my experience, I’ve observed this type of question frequently covers a troubling reluctance to listen to what others say. I echo Brian’s comment: how can you define or tell what comes from the Spirit? John 3:8 comes to mind. Also, what does “flesh” mean? A sinful motive? How can one really distinguish the motives of another? Only God who can read another person’s heart. It is very easy to disregard exUBFers by saying, “I don’t have to listen to them because what they’re saying is from the wrong motive–from the flesh.” It provides an excuse to keep the same mindset and direction. So by making a judgment of the motive of the “provocateur”, the person or group under discussion excuses themselves from having to listen to the content of the provocateur’s message.

>”Hopefully through our Spirit-filled prayers, words and interactions we can see the day that “they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn and be healed.”

Amen. And not only through Spirit-filled words and prayers, but through all the words and prayers and interactions and dialogue. We can move forward when everyone makes a concerted effort to just listen without making judgments about each others’ motives.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7640 Fri, 24 May 2013 15:15:19 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7640 “Your general comment isn’t so helpful to us. How would you suggest we tell the differnce between a ‘provacateur’ and a ‘prophet’? You write: ‘I wonder how much of it actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not the flesh.’ This is like asking, how many school teachers really teach from a spirit of love for children…”

I agree with Brian, asking such questions is not really helpful. If something truthful and Biblical has been said, you should consider it carefully, no matter by whome or from which motivation it has been said. Check the content of what has been said, not the person who said something, or the motivation you are imputing to someone, that is the only way to find out whether it is Biblical and right. Check against the facts, use rational thinking and empathy, use your conscience and common sense and check against the overall teachings of the Bible.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7637 Fri, 24 May 2013 13:22:35 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7637 Great questions, Brian. We are doing a 10 part video Men’s Series called “Stepping Up” by Dennis Rainey. This is a summation of part 6, which we watched last Sat: http://westloop-church.org/index.php/current-events/men-stepping-up/316-session-6-taking-initiative I found this about Bonhoeffer interesting since I do not think that I could or would go along with assassinating anyone today (this is a rough transcript from a video by Rainey):

“So how do we know if we should take initiative in something? How are we to know if it’s the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do? After learning what kind of an evil man Hitler was, Bonhoeffer, along with many of his friends, decided to plot how they could assassinate Hitler. Bonhoeffer was a Christian. How could he commit murder? According to the video, he believed that God is the God of the Scriptures. It was his absolute faith in God, that helped him take the initiative. He believed in his heart that this is what God wanted him to do. Bonhoeffer believed that if we obey God, even if we make mistakes, it’s okay. He believed that it was better to do something for God than to run away in fear. But, his plot was eventually found out and Bonhoeffer was hanged. Bonhoeffer wasn’t able to complete his mission, but yet, he still showed courage in taking initiative in something that he believed was right to do.”

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7636 Fri, 24 May 2013 13:11:27 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7636 Anon,

Your general comment isn’t so helpful to us. How would you suggest we tell the differnce between a “provacateur” and a “prophet”?

You write: “I wonder how much of it actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not the flesh.”

This is like asking, how many school teachers really teach from a spirit of love for children and how many are just control-freaks. Such a broad statement is of course based on a true observation. Some words here (including mine) are sometimes from the Spirit and sometimes from the flesh. It would be far more helpful to explain how to tell the difference. And I should point out that word from the flesh are not automatically bad or evil.

How can we know if something comes from the Holy Spirit or if it is coming from the flesh? Is the flesh so evil? Thoughts anyone?

]]> By: Anon. http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7634 Fri, 24 May 2013 11:51:51 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7634 Most of the rhetoric I’ve been hearing surrounding the ISBC seems to be cynical rather than hopeful, whether it be from my friends, peers or even UBFriends articles. Much of it is probably justified. I just hope that in the midst of it all, fellow brethren can have a spirit of prayer beyond anything else, myself included.

I respect/admire what you and other leaders are doing as I observe from a distance. I do visit the UBFriends website occasionally and enjoy the articles. I firmly believe that provocateurs are crucial in moving any organization forward. But in a church, true provocateurs are filled and led by the Holy Spirit. That is why there is a difference between those who merely provoke and those who have a truly “prophetic” voice through God’s Spirit.

When I read some of the online content, particularly the comments, I wonder how much of it actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not the flesh. Because that will make all the difference in terms of spiritual impact–otherwise the leaders will be “hearing but never understanding, seeing but never perceiving.” Hopefully through our Spirit-filled prayers, words and interactions we can see the day that “they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn and be healed.”

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7571 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:24:07 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7571 @gc. Good point about “individualism.” Eastern culture, including Korean culture is communalistic. Therefore, being individualistic is perceived and regarded as selfish. Thus, the phrase “selfish Americans” was often used by some UBF missionaries. So, if you think outside the box, or disagree with “UBF core values,” then you are selfish and not considerate or mindful toward the entire community (of UBF).

That is why UBF chapters throughout the world is for all intents and purposes “the same.” Strong and dominant Korean cultural elements in UBF does not welcome, permit or embrace indigenous local expressions of the Christian faith.

UBFriends critiques UBF spiritual abuses. But some UBF leaders view this as UBF bashing, negative, complaining and being ungrateful. They do not like HOT or SHOT. It is the evidence that they want to control UBF top-down from behind the scenes.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7569 Wed, 22 May 2013 13:13:38 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7569 “I think Rage Against the Machine wrote a song about that”

Nice, gc. Yes, music is another thing I have discovered on my search for reality. Music is real.

]]> By: gc http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7566 Wed, 22 May 2013 12:52:15 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7566 I agree with what is being said here.I will repeat what I said some time ago in a different thread. When I began Bible study to me it was just Bible study. I never joined anything or consented to anything more than that. But randomly my shepherd started tagging expectations on me – that I never consented to! As a result when I received rebuke at first I never understood what I had done wrong. It was not clear to me. I did not sin – well, at least not what I had been accused of. By the time of all this I did feel an emotional or friendly loyalty because a relationship had formed. So fear introduces itself in strange ways. (But that is not why I remained.)

I want to always encourage younger readers to contribute. You can share anything experienced in UBF. Without the contributions from younger people it is unclear whether or not anything has really changed. And, yes, another generalisation, but without that I would have to isolate each chapter and each person.

If we fear anyone who is a leader in UBF many things may happen. We start to cut friends from our life, because we cannot have them as Bible students or because they are ungodly. Whose to say we cannot be a good influence to them even if they never have desire to come to UBF? We can fear where we live, because everyone in UBF lives close. Now, this makes a little sense for families because of practical matters, but a come-and-go student should not be pressured into “common life” as a sign of their faith. Even jobs are a concern, as I think Big Bear had expressed. Being pressured to do church activities when there is a possibility of being fired from your job is not a test of faith it is just wrong.

One fear that I had to face was leaving my home chapter to go to another by circumstance (meaning there was nothing in ministry leading me to a specific alternative). I was later asked in detail by a brother who was making the same move how to handle it. Actually, you always get this feeling that you are letting everyone down, but each one of us has their own path. We cannot always fulfill the goals established by leaders – who sometimes it seems are playing with toy soldiers.

I remember the first conference after I left I was treated okay, but with contempt. I even experienced the leaders boldness when they told me to look at all the people they brought to the conference. Well, to turn that around, it is good to see that you can rebound and bring many people to the conference – don’t cry over me, I have my own path.

I reviewed something just now. Will some UBF leaders call a lack of fear “individualism”? A lack of fear can be seen as self confident. It has no connection to the people pleasing “yes” man approach. It’s the * you approach. I think Rage Against the Machine wrote a song about that. Not to compare free thinkers to secular humanists, but in the ministry such people are often seen that way.

]]> By: Ben Toh http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7555 Wed, 22 May 2013 11:47:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7555 One of my hopes through UBFriends is that younger members of UBF speak up boldly and without fear regarding what they really think, feel and believe.

A very unhealthy pervasive atmosphere of UBF that has been created over 50 years is to plant the fear of man in the name of respect toward older Korean leaders. I will categorically say that this is unbiblical and unhealthy for any church.

By fearing your chapter director or any older leader, you insult God who is above the head of the chapter director you fear (Prov 29:25).

By fearing your chapter director you actually aid, abet and assist him to continue to be spiritually abusive, controlling and unaccountable. This has practically and virtually caused all of the problems of UBF.

I am not advocating disrespect or anarchy, but I am addressing fearing any man, who is a human being who uses the washroom just like yourself.

Are you still going to fear your UBF leader, chapter director, missionary, elder???? That if you are single, he won’t allow you to marry? That if you are married, he still has authority to control how you run your own family and your children? That if you are a young UBF leader, he would not honor, recognize, affirm and approve of you? That your sense of your own self worth is entirely dependent on the assessment and evaluation of your leader?

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7548 Wed, 22 May 2013 10:02:03 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7548 Not in my book, aw. The prez does get the award for the most comments using quotations from other sources so he doesn’t have to be personally accountable for his opinions.

And James is not a chapter director, and does not display the reform and reconciliation attitude here like several of Wesleys comments did.

]]> By: Brian Karcher http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7547 Wed, 22 May 2013 10:00:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7547 ubfnomore, just a couple responses:

“- To comment, you have to register an account with this blog which consists of giving out your email address and creating username/password.”

> Correct. From a technical perspective, we need to prevent sploggers (spam bloggers). Chris’ points above match my other reasons.

“- This blog is controversial and people that are currently involved in UBF probably don’t want their real identity attached to this website in fear of being judged.”

> Judged by whom? Isn’t that telling? So either ubf is a deeply unhealthy church or it is a cult.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7545 Wed, 22 May 2013 08:54:10 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7545 “This is just another hassle people probably won’t go through unless they are REALLY compelled to speak on something.”

ubfnomore, I think that’s not something bad, bad something good. We don’t want it make easy for anonymous trolls to comment here, we want real people with real opinions, and people who care. If it is too much work for somebody to create an account, then this indicates that he or she does not take the issues seriously enough. Creating a small hurdle is not so bad.

“Many people will not want to register and give out personal information.”

You don’t need to use your real name, only a nickname. Your email is not shown to the public, and it’s easy to create an anonymous email account for discussions.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7544 Wed, 22 May 2013 08:42:25 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7544 “I still will not call UBF a cult because I know that healthy chapters exist and I have seen lives impacted by the work of the Holy Spirit through people in UBF.”

I would argue the opposite way around. I call UBF a cult because I know that non-healthy chapters exist in Germany, like my own chapter in Heidelberg and the one in Bonn, and how UBF top leadership dealt with these chapter leaders, namely by promoting them to national directors. I also know that healthy chapters existed in Germany, and I know how UBF top leadership dealt with them, namely by officially expelling the from UBF in 2001 and 2002. Not to speak about he founder of UBF and what happened in the headquarters. No tree can be healthy if the stem (the founder and his practices and teachings) is not healthy. And if there is a pattern of supporting the unhealthy branches and pruning the healthy branches.

Maybe UBF is less cult-like today than it was in the past, but unless UBF clearly admits its cult-like past and clearly distances itself from the sins and teachings of the past, it will continue to be a cult. When I see people wining that we “generalize” I can only conclude that they haven’t understood what we are talking about. I you join or remain in an organization where the founder and top leader ordered abortions, beat people, misapproporiated money, has been completely unaccountable, where severe spiritual abuse happened over decades in many chapters, and no kind of corporate repentance had happened even aftr 50 years, then you need to live with people challenging you about that and “generalizing” their experience to all of UBF. Do something about that instead of wining and complaining that people are “generalizing”.

]]> By: Chris http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/05/15/my-concerns-about-the-international-conference/#comment-7543 Wed, 22 May 2013 08:27:00 +0000 http://www.ubfriends.org/?p=6136#comment-7543 Yes, if he would not have evaded answering my questions, I would have given him some recognition.

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