Really upsetting to hear about being cut off. But rejoicing at your reaction :)

suddenly i feel like watching ‘Blues Brothers’ (round em up, move em out, Rawhide!)

i tried to finish what i was saying anyway, to respect what God moved me to share, but was cutoff since people, or at least leaders, just want to go thru motions not really get into it (so i say just pray then or just have someone give passage point idea, stop lying be calling it a message…<))

anyway i declared someone else can do it next time, God bless ya all & walked 'right on out a there'

guess i'll still go to conference since i like to finish what i start (who knows maybe Holy Spirit will work in spite of man's agenda), but no telling where God will lead after that

or is religion community? if so, it must show concern for quality of interaction, regardless of quantity (but wouldn’t genuine experience & sincere worship attract people & lead to quantity anyway?)

http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/04/13/the-10-commandments-of-ubf/#comment-6279

So for instance, this is the director’s mind:

“How” means “stop thinking so hard and just obey”
“we” means “shepherds and missionaries in ubf”
“love” means “teach and preserve the ubf heritage”
“others” means “people outside ubf”
“new people” means “people who don’t know about ubf but might attend”

So then this man’s question becomes a hidden command:

“Stop thinking so hard and just obey. As shepherds and missionaries in ubf we will teach and preserve the ubf heritage, proving to people outside ubf that ubf is God’s best ways. We will do this by continuously finding people who don’t know about ubf. That is what I am doing, and that is what you should be doing instead of wasting my time with your questions.”

This question strikes me as the epitomy of the ubf heritage thinking. I can hear echoes of all 12 heritage points in this question. This is not a question that stems from the gospel Jesus preached. It is not a question that arises from the Holy Spirit of God. It is not a question that surfaces from Christian prayer and meditation.

This is a question based on pride and arrogance. It is a business-minded question, rooted in earthly pursuits of glory, personal gain and selfish ambition. It is a question that is stitched into the Confucian fabric that blankets the ubf heritage.

This question reveals only a love for people less than me. There is no hint of God’s love, which is love for friends, enemies, family, neighbors and all humanity. This question reveals a love for superficial, orientation based relationships that can be controlled, not a love for deep, meaningful friendships that can be mutually edifying. It reveals a love for conformity and uninamity, not a love for transformation and unity in diversity.

“Is love, community and fellowship implicitly present in a church so that we just need to focus on how we can share the gospel, convert people, raise disciples and grow in number?”

No. If you are talking about a business, then I would say yes. But if you are talking about a Christian church, then I say no. Love, community and fellowship are not merely resources at the disposal of church leaders to fuel a recruiting engine. Such things exist to form a spiritual house or vessel for the Spirit to work. I believe such things exist in order to be a magnet, drawing in and attracting people to the fragrance of Christ.

“Is the church’s main purpose to raise up disciples, or is it the gathering place of sinners who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, who come to worship the living God, and love each other?”

I’m not fan of this dichotomy. So I must answer “yes and no”. Both purposes exist, but it is unhealthy and even dangerous to frame the articulation this way.

“Doesn’t evangelism come from the love we first received from God, which then overflows into love for others?”

Yes! The order here is of utmost importance to understand. When we see the bible’s language, we notice the Christian understanding: love and grace flow one way. What I mean is we can not return love or grace back to God. We can demonstrate our love for God by loving others. It is a trap to think that we can repay God or do a favor for God. We are recipients of grace and love from God, and that prompts us to express grace and love to our fellow humans. Note that we have no right to demand gratitude for showing love or grace.

“What would you do if a director agrees with what you say in theory, but in practice still pushes for the UBF slogan and practice of “raising disciples” as the main goal and priority?”

This is the normal behavior of ubf directors. They will agree with just about anyting, or they will thought-stop the conversation with something like “let’s just agree to disagree”. Then they proceed onward with the ubf heritage. Note that they will proceed with or without you, so don’t think they will value your relationship, even if you have known them 10, 20 or 30 years. Most certainly, you are younger than the director (if not then you have an advantage). So don’t count on your director valuing your relationship. He is betting on the fact that you value the relationship, and that you will do anything (even giving up your beliefs or conscience) in order to stay in the relationship and stay in ubf ministry.

In this situation, you have limited options. I say that whatever you do, you should question the director in some way. Question him kindly, gently and gracefully if you can. If not, then do it harshly and bluntly. Note that any questions of this nature will earn you some kind of training. Or if you are too blunt then such actions will earn yourself a good-bye letter and a rather forceful exit from ubf. Hopefully you will find a way to continue questioning the director without the ramifications of training or shunning. You should also note that asking too many questions or sharing your honest feelings too many times (like once or twice) will be viewd by the director as a “challenge” or “attack”. You might view it as just a question, but that won’t be how it will be received. Prepare for this. A lot of prayer and thinking is required before making such a challenge. You will need to be willing to risk your ubf career if you follow this advice. And if you are married with children, please consider the consequences of your actions on them. Your director might view you as disloyal, and go behind your back to influence (or punish) your wife and/or children.

I would ask this man (yes it is a man) the questions Jesus asked in His Sermon of Sermons, in Matthew 5:43-48. In these verse, Jesus asked: “If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?” But do your homework first. You must be absolutely certain of what you will say and what you are willing to do. Have a plan for multiple reactions. You will need to act quickly and decisively if things go wrong.

I would read these verses from the Message version as well: “You’re familiar with the old written law, ‘Love your friend,’ and its unwritten companion, ‘Hate your enemy.’ I’m challenging that. I’m telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best—the sun to warm and the rain to nourish—to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty. If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that. If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that.In a word, what I’m saying is, Grow up. You’re kingdom subjects. Now live like it. Live out your God-created identity. Live generously and graciously toward others, the way God lives toward you.”

I would say to him, “Until this church / chapter / whatever demonstrates more Christlike love, it doesn’t deserve to grow.”

The marks of a true disciple aren’t Bible study, evangelistic zeal, bringing people to his church, and so on. I’ve seen many people who do that who are obnoxious. The marks of a true disciple are (a) love, (b) love, and (c) love. Love God, love others, love your enemies. Love is not something that you can teach as part of a discipleship program. A community can only make disciples who love by fostering within itself an environment permeated by love.

To articulate the imperative of making disciples as the main purpose of the church tends toward practicing and imposing a particular methodology, tradition, teaching, etc that causes Christians to incline toward legalism, Phariseeism, judgmentalism, condescension, etc, toward those whom we/they perceive to be “not doing so.”

So I would agree with you that the church should primarily and overwhelmingly communicate to the world the love of God through Christ. When this is done, and others experience God’s redeeming love through the church and through Christians, the Spirit will transform them to become disciples.