time in God’s word (but as fellow seekers of Holy Spirit guidance, not making one interpretation & forcing down everyone’s throat as if we’re sure we’re right, when often we’ve been wrong..)

time in prayer (but as prayer for all nations, not making my little fishbowl part of world better/greater..)

time in fellowship (but as friends in God/encouraging one another/trusting God to guide each person over time, not imposing beliefs/bragging/judging/etc)

time in worship (but as collective praise/learning, not showing off/bullying into one point of view/only one way of ever doing things)

time in helping others (if/when able, not before primary obligations of family, work/school, etc)

just a few thoughts after 51 yrs experience with various denominations HALLELUJAH!

God Himself has hope in His own mission, but only He can rightly handle it; He doesn’t need our extra help; He needs us to live rightly/authentically in Him, He will do the rest;

we gotta stop destroying what He is doing, get outta the way, let Him work in/among…

today ctr passage/john 9: man born blind had to battle religious ldrs who were full of themselves/cared nothing about healing/tried to stop Jesus’ work

may the Holy Spirit enliven our hearts & minds with such spirit fruit that to share that we don’t waste our time with man’s agenda/ploys

And in case you want to read a critique of my own message go ahead. Back in 2006 that criticism was hard to take. But I’ve gone back to that many times since then. It has been most helpful for me to learn.

Oh and you said, “Thank God this is not a message.”

Yea, because then I’d have to give it a rating :)

I don’t know how to respond to all your thoughts in these last few comments. So I’ll just say this. You mentioned something that stood out to me: “I could see anger and frustration was rising in my heart”.

Anger and frustration (and even hyper-ventilation) is what I experienced when I participated in the “ubfriends 1.0” (which is my term for the Voy forum discussions :) I was so insanely worried about proving myself right and finding out who was on what side and did anyone justify ubf…

But this time around I am peaceful. Believe it or not there is no anger in my article above. I want to offer precise ways for Toledo UBF messengers to improve. Calling out some of their messages is something I believe will connect them to some non-ubf input and to some of the amazing things I’ve been learning the last few years.

You mentioned something about not agreeing, and even your wife disagrees sometimes. Why is that so surprising? One of my first lessons after leaving ubf was to discover this: It’s ok to disagree! How liberating. There are 7 billion people in this world. Not a single one agrees with me. It is in our differences that we find the peace and unity you seek.

Now I’m not saying I don’t get angry. Some my comments here did have anger behind them, but only a very few. I am being “me”. I am expressing my opinion. That’s something most normal people do. We are human beings. Only in ubf did I learn that we can’t be our selves and we should conform and submit humbly without question.

I know you will immediately say that you have been yourself all along. That’s fine. But I hope you realize many of us are not as strong as you. And some of us became submissive to ubf shepherds when we were at a very vulnerable time. Why do I sometimes come across as a rebellious 19 year old? Well because part of me was frozen in time when I experienced trauma as a 19 year old. Only now is that part of me becoming thawed out.

Love is not clean, btw. Love is messy. I don’t believe that love looks like clean hands or a nice tidy house (though I love cleanliness!) Love looks like dry, dirty, war-torn hands. Hands that look so fragile they would break but are really strong enough to lift a friend out of harm’s way.

I will never agree with you fully. You will never agree with me fully. But I am willing to be your friend.

When I mentioned putting friendship on the line, I did not mean I’m willing to risk losing friendships. What I mean is that I’m willing to risk straining friendships. I believe the friendship between you and I and Mark and I can survive all this. I won’t tip-toe around and I won’t let “like” or “dislike” buttons determine my actions.

Up to now I have believed that God’s calling for me was to be a STOP sign for ubf people– to cause people in ubf to stop and consider what is going on around us, especially in regard to friends leaving the ministry.

But lately I’m coming to a different belief– a belief that God wants my life to be a connector. What I mean is that I don’t think God has called me elsewhere. I am in a rather unique position to both understand the struggles of ubf people and learn from the outside Christian world, and connect the two.

Its kind of sad that you are willing to risk losing friendships over this…Id like to think that you know Mark and I well enough to know that you wouldnt lose us as friends over a heated discussion. We have had plenty with you over the past years.:)

I believe that the new article written by Joe has articulated alot of what i was trying to say. I do agree that feedback is necessary, but there has to be a constructive way to do it.

Brian, I will comment later on your response. I need to think about it some more.

Thank you for taking my words into consideration by typing out Samuel Lee’s name. Your action did not go unnoticed by me. Thank you. :-)

You are a good man. I really mean that. And I’m glad to know you and dare say to call you my brother.

Tbh, I also have treated people improperly with my sarcastic responses on numerous occasions. I did so out of my anger and to ‘push back’ as Joe likes to euphemistically call it. But it doesn’t justify it. I shouldn’t do it and I’m sorry that I do. And yet, I call you out personally on the very thing I do. Please forgive my hypocrisy, but please understand what I’m really trying to say, which others have much more elegantly and properly have shared. My real heart Brian, my real heart is that you don’t allow the pain, anger, and hurt yoy have will not consume you and poisen you still further.

No, a thousands time no, why do you claim such a thing? I would have understood if you said that Brian’s critique is unfair, unnecessary, wrong, arrogant, too much or whatever. But to claim this is similar to what Samuel Lee was doing is absurd.

The big difference is that Brian, contrary to Samuel Lee, does not claim to be anybody’s commander, does not claim to be “God’s servant”, does not claim to know God’s will for another person, does not claim to be the personal “shepherd” of anybody, does not claim to have any authority.

Samuel Lee’s problem was that he manipulated others to believe he is God’s “visible servant” and representative on this earth. And then, from this position, he started to give others “orientation”, even claiming that people will experience accidents if they don’t obey him. That was the problem with Samuel Lee, not that he criticized people too much. Had he just been a Christian brother with the bad habit of critizing people too much, that would have bothered nobody. His problem was that he claimed he was not a brother, but a father and commander for other people, and speaking on God’s behalf.

I will tell you straightly, I absolutely have zero problem with you doing what you are doing. You had the courage to stand up and say things that needed to be said. But don’t go and ruin it, by treating everyone as your enemy if they don’t wholeheartedly agree with your every view or don’t behave as you think they ought. When you do your message will only be hurt.

Tbh, I didn’t realize it at first, but as time has gone on, I discovered that my critique that I initially gave in my very first comment on this website, was my attempt to help you (all) to not alienate and have people ‘tune out’ the very valid message you are trying to convey. If you want people to listen to you, then you need to stop thinking everyone’s motive is sinister and dark, if they don’t agree with you, especially those who think the exact opposite of you. If you really want things to change, you can’t keep accusing those you want to change specific practices, they won’t listen… Surprise, surprise… Have genuine dialogue. I apologized when it was pointed out I said something that I should not have, but when I pointedl out to you the shabby way you treated me with your remark, when I said I want to start a new thread, called ‘Why’ and also your backhanded remark, about ‘Yippee’, ‘Skippy’, it doesn’t help your cause.

As I told you from the start, you are not my enemy. I will tell you the reason why I stepped away for several days last week. It was because I could see anger and frustration was rising in my heart towards some, including you Brian, the more I participated. But it was never my intention to just get increasingly angry and judgemental towards anyone here, but it was happening, whether I intended it or not. I came to have a real and genuine and honest conversation and to share my real opinions, and have a real dialogue, which I could see was not really happening. What I really want is for an understanding and peace to come out and even some change to take place, on both sides.

Yes I’m aware of all the facts you mention, such as inviting JA, etc. I know those facts and I am aware of other facts as well. I realize I am putting the last remaning friendships I have with Toledo UBF on the line.

I believe so much is at stake here that I’m willing to risk such a thing, just as I risked it two years ago. No one would have “liked” what I did at the time.

Honestly I’m surprised by the 6 likes on this article (in addition to my own 1 like).

If Mark and Martha are willing to dialogue with you on ubfriends then maybe you could correspond with them directly with your thoughts about the messages. I urge you not to be consumed with this. What truly motivates you? Be honest. Don’t let it ruin you.

I say this out of love because before submitting these online watch and guard your heart. This subject matter is way too close to you and we all understand what you may be doing in a practical sense, but it does not mean that everyone will agree with what you are doing. Remember that Mark and Martha are actually your friends.

I know nothing more of this and also cannot say any further. Just please do not be too hasty.

“Help me to understand what the difference is between what you are doing (in regards to the Toledo Messages) and what SL did ?”

I am reviewing the public messages from Toledo UBF on my own blog. I don’t think SL ever did something like that. Did he ever review Toledo messages? I don’t quite understand why you saw I’m acting like SL. I would like to understand what you mean though.

“Please show me how this is building up( well maybe building up walls of hostility), edifying, or Christ like.”

I am reviewing the Toledo UBF messages. If someone gives a 4 star sermon, I’ll say so. Has anyone ever given useful feedback to ubf messengers? I was such a messenger for 20 years, and I can safely say no one in ubf ever gave any useful feedback. A ubf messenger just receives words of flattery and the awkward “Thank God for your message!” type feedback. Or from time to time a ubf messenger is told how bad their message was but with no helpful information as to why it was bad. So Toledo UBF messages don’t improve.

The messages are the wall of hostility. When I was trying to deliver messages in Detroit UBF I became more and more frustrated with the Toledo UBF messages and ubf messages in general. Did I share my frusration? Yes. I initiated that conversation about the quality of messages. That is precisely how we got to where we are today!

The messages were at the heart of the Toledo UBF issues, were they not? Isn’t that what KB and TF and EF and NM all said? So I believe that I am being Christ-like by giving Toledo UBF messengers helpful feedback that will enable them to improve their messages. If the messages are the lifeline and source of God’s word, isnt’t improving them a worthwhie effort?

I do this review publicly because the messages are publicly available. I also do it publicly so that many people can add their thoughts. Maybe I’m wrong about a review. Then people can share their thoughts as well.

I’m not on a witch hunt. I really do want to help the messages improve. If the messages are “high quality” already, why shouldn’t they stand up to a review? Is there any process in place to do that within Toledo UBF? I don’t think so. There never has been any kind of message training except internal regurgitation of the same style message.

As Joe pointed out, this is my initiative on my blog. If my article here on ubfriends is not appropriate, I’ll gladly take it down. I won’t be reviewing the messages forever. But I will be reviewing them this Fall.

Just to clarify, so that no one gets confused: Brian’s reviews and ratings appear on his own website, not on UBFriends. I would not be in favor of putting them here.

Help me to understand what the difference is between what you are doing (in regards to the Toledo Messages) and what SL did ? From here, I see a great resemblence. You took a message, you not only critiqued the message, but also criticized it ( “The Toledo UBF message just quickely makes a “cute connection” that comes off like a loud gong.” )- you spin the truth to get the effect you want. You call the messenger “my friend” which later you say, “I use the term friend, not because any but to communicate the fact that I long for the day when we could be friends”. ( this is not how you go about making friends especially when “your friend” has no idea what you just did to his message in public and behind his back). Isnt this shaming, criticizing, spining the truth and above all hurtful and not building up. Please show me how this is building up( well maybe building up walls of hostility), edifying, or Christ like.

Isnt this what stoning would look like in a modern day society. I am not against what is happening in UBFriends. I like the dialogue, I like the honesty, the transparency,its helped me process many things. God is using it, but sometimes its to hostile and wounding for me to join. Sometimes i feel that its one sided and if I dont side with you (anti-ubf), then I am just siding with UBF which is the bad guy and i should just take all the “finger pointing and stoning” because I am part of the problem since i am still in ubf. Or i am labeled blind to all the issues.

There are a few of us in UBF who are not blind to the issues,we know the ugly in this organization and the good. We are standing in the midst of the mess, and we are receiving blows from both sides. I want you to know that there is alot of pain here to. Your pain is not bigger than my pain, nor my pain is bigger than yours. Pain is subjective,Its individual pain. (there i said it) The only difference between those who left ubf and some of us still in UBF is that we believe God has called us to stay to be used by Him to make a difference. He has called you elsewhere.

You mention hostility, that Toledo should be breaking down the walls of hostility. Arent you building walls of hostility when you keep talking against Toledo UBF and its messengers, knowing full well of the current status of Toledo. You know full well that we invited John Armstrong to help us dialogue within the whole ministry to discuss issues. That the past director PH stepped down, and three natives stepped up to serve the ministry. That internal change is happening and God is working, not at our pace but at His.That we are seeking God and outside help to do what is right before God and others because that is what we long to do.
Mark wrote the following about receiving input from you personally towards the messages. Are you going to respect this or are you going to find an excuse to go public because your true intention is not really making friends nor building up Toledo? I ask again arent you doing the same thing SL did?

So what is your true intent Brian? We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometimes we must surrender to God and let go and allow Him to heal us and allow reconciliation to occur. I am only speaking of Toledo UBF not as UBF as a whole.

Mark wrote:

My reference to building walls is not in reference to rebuilding “the walls of hostility”. It is the walls of a healthy body of Christ. My reference was to the walls of Jerusalem being rebuilt. The analogy stops there. My hope is to build a healthy community and body of Christ. That includes you Brian and not only people who have left UBF but those who would call upon the name of Christ. John Armstrong’s book, Unity Factor truly challenges me to look beyond our ministry (we are not the end) and see the body of Christ as larger than my own little world and rejoice in the work of God as it unfolds around us. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/08/31/wheres-the-hope/#sthash.xkn2K7SH.dpuf

I’m not in favor of you continuing a rating system unless your purpose is to edify and support us to write better messages. In that case, I am definitely, in favor of you communicating that personally. The spirit by which we write and serve the congregation with the word of God is not for the purpose of defending our wrongs or justifying ourselves, or continuing an unhealthy ministry. – See more at: http://www.ubfriends.org/2013/08/31/wheres-the-hope/#sthash.xkn2K7SH.dpuf

My reference to building walls is not in reference to rebuilding “the walls of hostility”. It is the walls of a healthy body of Christ. My reference was to the walls of Jerusalem being rebuilt. The analogy stops there. My hope is to build a healthy community and body of Christ. That includes you Brian and not only people who have left UBF but those who would call upon the name of Christ. John Armstrong’s book, Unity Factor truly challenges me to look beyond our ministry (we are not the end) and see the body of Christ as larger than my own little world and rejoice in the work of God as it unfolds around us.

I’m not in favor of you continuing a rating system unless your purpose is to edify and support us to write better messages. In that case, I am definitely, in favor of you communicating that personally. The spirit by which we write and serve the congregation with the word of God is not for the purpose of defending our wrongs or justifying ourselves, or continuing an unhealthy ministry. If that is coming out in the messages, then by all means please communicate that personally. But I can say that our hope is to feed those who come to our service with a word of God that we are being inspired by and that we pray is honoring to God.

I don’t understand a couple things.

a) Why do you feel exiled? Wasn’t it me who was exiled, pushed away and driven off along with several other leaders?

b) Why do you want to rebuild walls? Wasn’t it the walls that stood in the way of forming real friendships? Isn’t it God’s work to tear down the walls of hostility that are clearly between us?

I don’t understand a couple things.

a) Why do you feel exiled? Wasn’t it me who was exiled, pushed away and driven off along with several other leaders?

b) Why do you want to rebuild walls? Wasn’t it the walls that stood in the way of forming real friendships? Isn’t it God’s work to tear down the walls of hostility that are clearly between us?

I don’t dispute the fact that someone could have been encouraged by this message. I believe what you say about intentions. But the content of this message says otherwise. I think a messenger has to be at least somewhat concerned with how the message will be received. In my review, it is a one-star message. If someone gives a 4 star message, I’ll say so in my weekly reviews.

@gc, no this message was not about Brian. The message spoke of Toledo Public Schools as well as call to the community to pray for our community, including TPS. He says, “The point is whether we are from Toledo, Frankfurt, Cologne, Seoul, or wherever, we must Pray for our cities and countries and it’s leaders.” I can see how speaking of another city could be felt as an attack and I appreciate that. If someone spoke of Toledo, I would probably take exception.

Correct, gc. You understand why this message came across as utterly offensive to me. Did the Toledo UBF messenger intentionally mean to do this? Probably not. Did the Toled UBF messenger think more than 2 seconds about how this would sound to me or other former membes or anyone outside Toledo? No. Was that “guy who failed to pray for Detroit and who left UBF in Detroit” in the back of a lot of people’s minds when they heard this? Probably yes.

One last thing, yes, ubfriends does the same thing. It mentions and scorns people inside of UBF. However, the most that is demanded is a common ground to see that abuse occurred. No one I believe is trying to turn anyone 100% to their side. But in UBF if we do not turn 100% to the side of the status quo and body then we are shunned in any way that can be conceived.

I would otherwise agree with the comment from secondgen777 completely. If we know someone personally it is indeed better to confront them in a private manner. Sometimes the online commentary lacks tact and ‘professionalism’ but in this case I can see where Brian is coming from.

No. As I explained, I cannot communicate like that due to fear of a harassment lawsuit.

“Perhaps you would get a better response if you wrote this to him in a personal email or perhaps talked over the phone, or even discussed it over some coffee.”

Coffee is out for we live in different cities. I received rather spiteful responses from this friend when I tried to discuss various matters through email. I don’t think that is an avenue I could pursue.

“Then, if he didn’t respond or refused to see your point of view, you would have every right to do as you have done here.”

I think you are wrong about that. If I met someone personally and shared private concerns, why do you think that gives me the right to share publicly? We are not talking about any kind of sin against me, which if that were the case you would be correct.

This is a public message given by a group of people who claim to be the “elite soldiers of Christianity”. They won’t respond by the way. The only thing they may do is to hide the public messages, which would be a service to the internet community. Sharing publicly this way is not meant to help my friend; he won’t listen now (but might in the future).

My sharing might help others to discern why the messages in Toledo UBF continue to not give life or ignite a hopeful Christian response in people. The messages in Toledo UBF were what started the blow up in 2010, and 3 years later the messengers there just “keep on keeping on” without making any effort to learn from real pastors.

I use the term friend, not because any kind of friendship exists, but to communicate the fact that I long for the day when we could be friends.

I plan to start a new series on my blog where I review the Toledo UBF messages on a weekly basis. I call it the “Toledo UBF Weekly Message Review”. I won’t hold back regardless of who is the messenger.

However, I have a question. Considering that the writer of this message is your friend, did you first confront him personally about his errors in gentleness and love? Perhaps you would get a better response if you wrote this to him in a personal email or perhaps talked over the phone, or even discussed it over some coffee. Then, if he didn’t respond or refused to see your point of view, you would have every right to do as you have done here.

In my opinion, this is not the way to go about correcting someone that you consider a friend. If you think otherwise, perhaps it would be best to revisit and reevaluate your definition of friendship. If a friend did this to me, I would hesitate to even call that person a friend. However, if he privately expressed his concerns to me in a loving and humble way in which two way dialogue can happen, I would not only be more likely to see things from his point of view, but also to remain friends with that person.